Moshe Winegarten, Chief Revenue Officer at Ecommpay
At Money20/20 in Amsterdam, the c-suite podcast welcomed back Moshe Winegarten, Chief Revenue Officer at Ecommpay, to delve into the evolving dynamics of global payments. Reflecting on their previous conversation in Berlin, Winegarten addressed the increasing diversity of local payment methods. While he acknowledged the added complexity for businesses expanding across multiple regions, he emphasised that these emerging solutions often stem from real consumer and market needs—particularly in developing areas where traditional card penetration is weak. For merchants, this fragmentation presents both a challenge and an opportunity, as adapting to local preferences becomes a crucial factor in successful globalisation.
Winegarten also discussed Ecommpay’s expanded partnership with Token.io, which is helping to address issues in open banking through the orchestration model. Rather than being a Payment Initiation Service Provider (PISP) itself, Ecommpay integrates with multiple PISPs to enhance reach, resilience, and success rates for its merchants. A key innovation in the partnership has been the introduction of localised IBANs in markets such as Spain, France, Ireland, and the Netherlands. This has allowed merchants to sidestep a persistent problem known as IBAN discrimination, where some banks add friction—either through additional checks or outright rejection—when funds are sent to non-local European IBANs, even within the EU.
While the EU aims for seamless cross-border payments, Winegarten noted significant differences still exist between markets, driven by regulatory approaches, banking infrastructure, and consumer behaviour. He highlighted the UK’s strong standardisation, while other markets remain more complex due to the diversity of processes underlying their payment rails.
Looking ahead, Winegarten sees the most promising momentum in account-to-account payments within verticals where large-value fund transfers are common. These include topping up neobank accounts, remittances, forex trading, tax payments, and credit card balance repayments. Although regular retail purchases via open banking are yet to see widespread adoption due to factors like limited consumer protections and lack of unique selling points, he remains optimistic that the space will mature over time. For now, Ecommpay continues to focus on areas showing tangible traction and value, leveraging its open banking orchestration model to provide a flexible and effective solution in an increasingly fragmented payments landscape.
Angela Hull, SVP of Global Payment Partners at PPRO
Angela Hull, SVP of Global Payment Partners at PPRO, joined the podcast for a conversation on the evolution of the payments industry. Angela reflected on her career spanning more than 30 years, recalling the early 1990s when Visa and Mastercard dominated and debit cards were still a distant dream. While the tools have changed dramatically, she noted that many of the concepts remain the same, buy now, pay later, for instance, mirrors the practice of post-dated cheques once common in department stores. The difference now lies in the technology driving these consumer experiences forward.
Angela pointed to the meteoric rise of local payment methods such as Pix in Brazil and UPI in India as powerful indicators of how consumer behaviour is the real catalyst for innovation. The pandemic, she said, accelerated online spending in markets like Brazil, allowing services like Pix to flourish. Similarly, UPI has transformed digital payments in India. In both cases, success was not driven by industry push but by consumer pull, underlining that attempts to force users into certain behaviours rarely work. The question then arises, does the UK or Europe need a similar solution? Angela suggested that while these markets are more mature, there is still potential for innovation to emerge where there is a genuine gap and a strong consumer need.
The conversation also touched on the growing complexity of regulatory requirements. Angela stressed the importance of staying alert and proactive, relying on teams that constantly monitor shifts in regulation. The future of global commerce, she argued, lies not in making merchants expand across borders, where taxation and legal hurdles abound, but in empowering consumers to pay how they want, wherever they are. That focus on consumer experience, she believes, is where scalable solutions can be developed within regulatory boundaries.
Angela also discussed PPRO’s recent partnership with the European Payments Initiative (EPI), describing it as a major step toward a unified local payment method in Europe through the launch of Wero. She praised the project for taking a “consumer first” approach, working closely with iDEAL and building the infrastructure around real user needs. Angela believes this commitment to user-centric design, combined with PPRO’s experience on the merchant and PSP side, positions Wero as a serious contender, even against established giants like PayPal.
When asked what makes partnerships like this successful, Angela highlighted the value of diverse experience. It’s not just about shared goals, she said, but about recognising that no one has all the answers. A successful partnership comes from combining different perspectives with a mutual commitment to progress and timelines.
The conversation offered a grounded and insightful look into the current and future landscape of payments, shaped by consumer behaviour, regulatory vigilance and the strength of collaborative partnerships.
Robert Kraal, co-founder of Silverflow
Robert Kraal, co-founder of Silverflow, offered a measured yet optimistic view of the current embedded finance landscape. According to Kraal, the space is not only established but growing rapidly, with both large payment service providers and niche players entering the market. He emphasised the particular benefits for small and mid-sized retailers, noting that embedded finance is becoming a vital part of their operations.
Kraal pointed out that banks are well-positioned to succeed in this space due to their extensive financial expertise. However, he acknowledged a key shortcoming: banks often lag behind on the technology front. This technological gap has opened the door for more agile start-ups and specialised tech firms. Ultimately, Kraal believes the winners will be those institutions, be they traditional banks or new entrants, that manage to combine financial authority with technological innovation. Failure to adapt, he warns, could result in banks losing out to faster, smarter competitors.
Turning to cross-border payments, Kraal acknowledged the increasing regulatory complexity but remained unfazed. He argued that demand for cross-border transactions—from businesses and consumers alike, is robust and growing. For Kraal, complexity does not negate opportunity; rather, it raises the bar for businesses to meet the need effectively and perhaps benefit from higher margins if they do it well.
From the merchant’s perspective, Kraal highlighted a growing expectation for transparency and insight from payment providers. While smaller merchants may prioritise basic functionality, larger and more sophisticated retailers are demanding granular data. They want to understand transaction-level detail, why payments are declined, what drives chargebacks, how settlement times vary, and more. According to Kraal, many providers still operate as black boxes, giving clients limited visibility. This lack of insight is increasingly out of step with merchant expectations, especially among those who view payments as a strategic lever.
Kraal also shed light on Silverflow’s partnership with Bolt, which illustrates how the company enables innovation within existing banking relationships. Bolt, a platform retailer, had strong ties to its acquiring bank but found the bank’s technology lacking. Rather than switching providers entirely, Bolt turned to Silverflow to supply the tech layer while continuing to use the bank’s license and financial infrastructure. Silverflow’s role is to route transactions directly into the card networks, giving Bolt access to the data and tools it needs while preserving its core banking relationship. Kraal described the arrangement as the best of both worlds, allowing Bolt to remain loyal to its bank while gaining a significant technological upgrade.
Throughout the discussion, Kraal’s insights reflected Silverflow’s broader mission: to provide retailers and platforms with the infrastructure needed to understand and optimise their payment operations without sacrificing key financial relationships.
Asya Karakus, Head of Payment Partnerships at SumUp
Asya Karakus, Head of Payment Partnerships at SumUp, reflected on a decade of industry evolution, marking her tenth year attending the event. Speaking to Graham, she noted how significantly the conversations have shifted even within the past year, with digital identity and digital DNA emerging as major themes. These discussions, she said, signal an exciting future for the payments space, particularly as digital identity becomes increasingly vital. She also highlighted the growing role of embedded intelligence, which is integrating payments into industries that were previously overlooked—such as gaming and gambling—illustrating a broadening scope of innovation.
As regulatory frameworks catch up with rapid fintech growth, Karakus pointed to the resurgence of regulatory sandboxes. These programs are gaining traction again, especially in Asia, where she recently attended Money20/20 in Bangkok. Regulators in markets like Sri Lanka and the Philippines are exploring sandboxes as a way to trial financial technologies such as blockchain without full licensing requirements. This approach reflects a broader need for flexible oversight in the face of emerging technologies that many authorities are still learning to regulate.
When asked about blockchain’s trajectory, Karakus acknowledged its current buzzword status but suggested that its true value will emerge in tandem with AI. She believes blockchain will dominate conversations in the coming year, evolving from hype to practical application. Looking ahead, she sees the next iteration of Money20/20 as the perfect stage to examine how far blockchain has progressed.
Karakus also discussed SumUp’s global partnership strategy. With operations in over 30 countries and a recent launch in Mexico, the company is focused on forming scalable, mutually beneficial partnerships. She emphasized the importance of aligning with international players that support SumUp’s global ambitions, rather than limiting collaborations to local or product-specific solutions.
In terms of the company’s future direction, Karakus said SumUp is working to “close the loop” on its services. Starting from point-of-sale (POS) acceptance, the company has expanded its product suite to include business accounts, cards, cash advances, consumer wallets, and invoicing tools. She explained that in today’s market, offering a single product is no longer enough. Businesses must provide a seamless, omnichannel experience—something SumUp is actively building toward. For Karakus, closing the loop isn’t just a strategy; it’s the next major challenge for both SumUp and the payments industry at large.
Phil Harding, Commercial Director at Cashflows
Phil Harding, Commercial Director at Cashflows, to discussed the company’s latest moves in embedded finance and the evolving payments landscape. Harding described the event as both busy and productive, with a significant number of conversations centred on embedded payments and how Cashflows is helping shape the future of payment solutions for ISVs, ISOs and PayFacs.
Harding identified three major drivers behind the growth of embedded finance. First, he pointed to shifting market dynamics, noting that while 70% of merchants currently select their payment provider directly, it’s expected that within three years, 70% will be onboarded through their software provider. This fundamental change makes embedded payments a crucial route to market. Second, he highlighted a growing awareness around the power of payments not just as a cost but as a source of revenue and value creation. Lastly, he said there is a clear desire among ISVs and similar platforms to take greater ownership of the payment journey, from customer experience to underwriting.
With embedded payments now a buzzword across the sector, Harding stressed the importance of cutting through the noise. He explained that the key lies in understanding the specific objectives of each partner. A newly launched ISV has very different needs from one already connected to multiple acquirers. Cashflows tailors its approach accordingly, whether that means supporting a basic referral model or helping a more established partner on the path to becoming a full PayFac. Flexibility, Harding said, is central to offering value.
Discussing strategic partnerships, Harding outlined two recent collaborations that showcase Cashflows’ commitment to enabling faster and more efficient market entry. The first is with Cardstream, aimed at simplifying compliance and accelerating go-to-market for platforms aspiring to become payment facilitators. Harding noted that while just 8% of ISVs in Europe have adopted the PayFac model compared to 48% in the US, Cardstream’s modular platform allows ISVs to monetise as a PayFac in as little as three months—rather than after years of building infrastructure and securing licenses.
The second partnership, with Indian fintech giant Mswipe, is an example of global collaboration. As a well-established acquirer and processor in India, Mswipe sought a swift and cost-effective entry into the UK market. By using Cashflows’ licences and regulatory expertise, Mswipe can deploy their own technology stack while relying on Cashflows to handle settlement and compliance. This arrangement enables a quicker, lower-risk market entry and is set to go live within the next quarter.
Harding concluded by emphasising the importance of partnerships in today’s payments ecosystem. He described Cashflows as a partnership-led organisation that enables other fintechs to scale. As customer needs become more complex, he argued that it is increasingly unrealistic for firms to build everything themselves. Strategic collaboration, he believes, is not just beneficial but essential for innovation and growth in the sector.
