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Produced in partnership with Globalization Partners, in this episode, our aim was to help those businesses looking to expand into new countries by explaining just how easy it is to hire talent anywhere in the world without the complexity of setting up foreign offices or subsidiaries. We were joined online from Boston, US by Globalization Partners’ Founder and CEO, Nicole Sahin
We also heard from Dhaval Gore, Head of the Mayor’s International Business Program at London & Partners, and Elizabeth Palmisano, Talent Acquisition and HR Manager at ClickDimensions, one of Globalization Partners’ clients.
Nicole explained that Globalization Partners is a global employer of record platform. They have digitised the entire process of a company going global. So, whenever a company wants to employ a person in another country, whether it’s Brazil, Saudi Arabia or China, they just identify the person that they want to hire and Globalization Partners put their employee on their already existing company payroll in country and add them to their local benefits. They bill the client the cost of the employee’s total compensation plus their services fee – that way the client can go into a new country quickly and easily. With their software, a company can go into any country within a couple hours of signing an engagement letter. Nicole explained how they have completely digitised the process of going global. She said it used to be that companies had to set up branch offices and subsidiaries and do a lot of research on the legal, tax and HR processes around the world, but instead they can now leverage Globalization Partners’ already existing subsidiaries on the ground in country and their existing compliant, HR and legal infrastructure via their software and therefore eliminate having to do any of that. So, they have operations all over the globe, they have about two hundred and seventy people internally and supporting thousands of clients going global.
Nicole said that she helped start a company that helped other companies expand internationally. The idea behind that business was that every time a company wanted to hire an employee in China or Brazil, for example, they would have to figure out all the legal, tax and HR issues in that country and the way that business made it scalable is that they were a drop-in international finance, HR and legal team. Nicole had already set up 60 companies in China, so by the time she was setting up number sixty-one, it would be easy enough for her to help Tesla and other high growth companies do the same thing. After doing that for six years, she had set up probably 100 companies in the UK, one for each client that wanted to hire local employees, 60 companies in Brazil, 60 companies in China. Again, and again, most of her clients just wanted to hire one or two people on the ground in each country so that they could start selling there. It seemed super inefficient to Nicole because it would take tens of thousands of dollars and six months for them to plan to start hiring people, much less just getting started. So, she thought if she could just set up one company in each country and give all of their clients access to it, they would have a much more scalable and likable business model for companies to use to expand internationally. At first it was a business model that wasn’t considered compliant, she explained that is she spoke to large companies like PwC or Deloitte or a law firm in those days, usually they would say, no, that’s not going to work. But when she dug in on a country by country basis, into the legal and tax issues, ultimately it is possible to make it work. They just had to work on a country by country basis to make the legal, finance and tax issues in each country manageable and compliant. The world is just getting more complex with data compliance and data security, which actually makes it more and more likable for clients to use a model like Globalization Partners because they know they’re putting all the hard things on their shoulders because it’s hard enough for a company to manage a company globally. Running a business globally, but not having to deal with legal complexities makes it much easier for their clients.
Nicole explained that whilst she loved her previous business there were some mistakes, she also acknowledged that as she wasn’t fully in control of that business, it may be easier to recognise the mistakes. One thing that she struggled with in that business was that it was very hard to make their clients like their business because it’s really hard to figure out how to go into a new country and consulting services, by nature, it’s expensive and it’s custom every time. And so, their clients weren’t very happy with their services. Ultimately, when Nicole set up Globalization Partners, she decided the only way I wanted to do it was if they could make their clients happy, make their employees happy and if they could create a business that people truly love. She is now happy to say that they have 97% client satisfaction ratings. Nicole believes that there are two reasons for that; One is because they care a lot and invest heavily and ahead of the curve in making sure that their product, software and people are united to provide a great client experience. But beyond that, what they do is infinitely scalable. It’s a lot easier for a client to put an employee on their payroll and benefits plan in another country and work with their HR person in another country than it is for them to set up their own infrastructure and get it right from scratch. So, there’s two reasons it’s worked, but she is glad it did because otherwise she doesn’t think we’d be here.
Globalization Partners has been recognised by the Financial Times as one of the fastest growing companies in the US, as well as having announced a $150m minority equity investment. Nicole said that the investment has not changed anything. She added that whilst she was bullish before the investment, but she is now even more bullish on the business and the industry overall. Whilst of course she would never have wished for a pandemic and it has impacted all of our lives significantly, she said as companies move more and more towards remote work, they find that it’s almost like an acceleration towards the globalization of the workforce. People are not able to bring foreign talent from other countries into the United States, for example, maybe they need a specific language skill to support clients or they need engineers. The US has a shortage of more than a million engineers. Now Globalization Partners can see that their clients are just hiring the talent wherever it is, rather than only hiring people in a one-hundred-mile radius of the headquarters. The company is going to grow faster than ever.
Nicole then explained how easy it was to start hiring talent from anywhere. For example, if a client, a London headquartered company, wants to hire an employee in Singapore they would identify the person that they want to hire and negotiate what compensation they want to pay that employee and what the person’s job duties are. Once they figure that out, they go on to Globalization Partners’ software and they draft an employment contract for them via the software that’s at their fingertips. So, into that employment contract, they recommend things like non-compete terms, offer letter terms, what type of benefits they might want to offer their employee. By the time they get through the employment contract generating software component, Globalization Partners have issued an employment contract to their local employee on the ground in country. Technically, they are legally the employer of record for that individual in Singapore, going on their payroll, but for all intents and purposes, they work for the client. But if you can imagine how easy that is to get an employment contract out at someone’s fingertips, via an app on their phone, compared to figuring out how to set up a company in country, figuring out what type of benefits you can offer in country and if it’s even possible to hire to set that up for one employee. So basically, the employee’s on their payroll, their HR person on the ground would reach out to that employee, introduce themselves, talk the employee through any questions in the contracts. It’s a very transparent relationship. The client tells the employee that they’ll be employed through Globalization Partners and it works out really well. The professionals are very happy. The people who work on behalf of their clients are very happy. They do on-boarding surveys every month and almost always all the employees are happy with their service because they just want to be paid and do their job and get their work done.
Sometimes their clients, if they were to grow, let’s say if they only have a few employees in Singapore, they probably will just stay with them as the employer of record. But if they grew their team in Singapore and they had, let’s say, 20 employees in Singapore, it probably would make sense for them at that point to incorporate their own legal entity and transfer those employees to that in-house entity. It’s quite an easy transfer which can be better for the clients because they’ve already established local benefits, proper employment contract terms, their IP has been protected. So, it’s quite easy for them to terminate the contract with Globalization Partners and rehire the employees through that local subsidiary.
Nicole explained that if the company needed to let the employee go, they would ask that the client notify them and they work hand in hand with the employee and the client to do anything that they can to manage the relationship. So, for example, if they need to have a performance improvement plan, their local HR person on the ground works with the employee and the client. But in some cases, it’s just a matter of a termination. She added that that’s where it’s really important to get it right. They feel like the client’s risk is their risk in that case, too. They want to make sure that it’s a peaceful solution for everybody involved. She said they found that it’s always human, you can have software and you can try to make things scalable, but at the end of the day, these are people’s lives, and these are the hard things. So, having their local HR team on the ground to work hand in hand with the client and the employee to settle it is the best approach and normally very effective. That’s when their clients appreciate this, too, because trying to navigate a termination in a foreign country would be extremely challenging if you didn’t have anybody.
Nicole believes that that the awareness of the global employer record model is greater in the US than it is in Europe or in Asia. Globalization Partners launched in 2012 in the United States and slowly built the business because they wanted to make sure that they were building a truly compliant global business. As of January, they launched their European headquarters and sales and marketing team in London, and they have just launched their Asia sales and marketing team as well. They have had a little bit more time to get established in the United States. Companies are just starting to think about this in Europe, but the market opportunity is huge. She said that they love working with their European and Asian clients and they will grow much faster in those regions because they have already established the business.
We then hear from Elizabeth Palmisano, ClickDimensions’ Talent Acquisition and HR Manager about using the employer of service route to expand internationally. She explained that when they incorporated themselves or set up in region, it takes months before they are actually able to hire a person, if they’re lucky. Whilst she encourages people to look at the numbers themselves, for her it was it was clear between lawyers and fees and contracts and banking costs and vendors. That’s just the monetising piece, it’s not even the other side of it, which is the time that it takes to find vendors and execute contracts and to go back and forth and to hold people accountable. As an HR professional or even as a leader, a hiring manager, your time is so much better spent executing than researching, because not only are you going to research, but then you have to execute on top of it. That’s a lot of extra money that you’re spending that you don’t necessarily see on the spreadsheet when you’re looking at ROI because you’re not factoring into it the time it’s going to take you to find the right person to be able to help you do that. It’s not just a Google search and a click away. These are interviews and conversations that you’re going to have to have, if you’re not thinking about the time it’s going to take to do the things and not just the costs, you’re going to find yourself in a sticky situation, especially if you have managers that are looking to move fast. Elizabeth said that the employer of record really is the way to go. She explained that for them, it was super clear that what they got back from Globalization Partners was worth way more than what they put in. With Globalization Partners, they can pick up the phone today and say, ‘hey, I’m going to hire somebody in Portugal. I’ve got a candidate. What do we need to do?’ And within 24 hours, they are ready to move forward with this candidate. They can start talking about developing a contract and getting this person moving. Whereas if they were incorporating it themselves, they are just doing research about the country to see if they can post the position. Someone is always there to respond and give a nuance or help you understand the social norms where you are opening. Elizabeth admitted that she doesn’t know if she would be as excited about it if she hadn’t already gone through the process and set up employees in a region, it was such a process and it was so frustrating. They got it done, but if she looks back and they had gone with Globalization Partners then, how much further ahead would they be?
Nicole then explained that they actually work with quite a few established multinationals as well as start-up and scale ups. More than half of their clients are software and high growth technology companies. So, she thinks the reason the business model appeals to those companies specifically is because they’re always trying to grow as quickly as they can, and grab global market share, they also often at times have to hire talent wherever they find it in terms of engineers and everyone else. Globalization Partners have all kinds of companies on their platform. The main things that they look for when looking for clients is professionally managed high growth companies; those companies choose them because they want to make sure that their IP is protected. These are companies where compliance is important, they want to make sure that IP is protected, data privacy is secure, and that the details are correct, because otherwise, if they didn’t care about compliance, they might have everyone as a contractor or pay them ‘under the table’. So, ‘mom and pop shops’ really aren’t concerned about that type of thing, but they probably should be.
It’s not just about making life easy for the clients, but also there’s those potential new recruits who have to be convinced that the employer of record service is the route to go. Elizabeth explained that they have two team members in Australia that started two weeks ago, they both, when they did their orientation, said that everyone that they spoke to at Globalization Partners was super helpful from the moment they received their contracts all the way through their onboarding, and that there was always someone available to them in region, which was important. So, they’re able to get real time response, even though Elizabeth was on the other side of the world. That’s just their two Sydney partners, they also have their Singapore employee who was extremely happy with the ease at which they were able to get him his contract and go back and forth and negotiate. Elizabeth then gave an example of an employee in the UK who was very concerned about coming on through an employer of record. She’d always been a direct employee or contractor and was concerned that this was a contract situation, just having that one on one conversation with her and being able to walk her through the process and what Globalization Partners does, she talked to her contact at Globalization Partners and she was able to digest what that person had said to her and come back to Elizabeth the very next day, saying she was ready to sign on the dotted line. So, it’s not just about being there for them and answering the questions, but in these types of situations where you’re not right in front of them and you don’t have that one on one rapport with them, having a company that’s able to create that rapport is very important.
Nicole said that Globalization Partners have been rated the leading global employer of record platform by Nelson Hall in an independent industry analyst report. She said that the things that set them apart are that they have their own in-house infrastructure built around the globe, which is critical because you ultimately don’t know how compliant or how scalable a global employer record is unless it’s been built in-house by a world class legal, HR and finance team – you can’t have control over something you don’t own. They are the only employer of global employer of record with that infrastructure built in-house. Then secondly, on top of that is their technology. Globalization Partners are the only company that’s digitised all of that, employer of record could be just the services industry, everything’s done by email type business model. But at the end of the day, Nicole said that we all know that’s not how business works anymore, so it was important to them to always make sure that technology is at the forefront. It’s also really important for compliance again, because of data security you can’t have email addresses, bank accounts and payroll information just flying around the globe in attachments. So, they have taken the approach of, if they can literally put it at their client’s fingertips and digitise the entire process of hiring people internationally and they don’t even have to worry about HR, legal or tax issues because Globalization Partners have got it, that would be a winning formula. Nicole added that having 97% customer service ratings and having a focus on quality sets them apart. That was more a matter of wanting to feel good about whatever it is that she created and put into the world, but she is also really happy that it also paid off as a business investment. Nicole hopes that other businesses can take that as a new principle or someday, if she writes a book, she’ll include that, because Silicon Valley in the United States has the idea of build as fast as you can and move fast and break things. Whilst she can see the point of that, when it comes to HR and people’s lives and livelihoods, it just seemed like very counterproductive. So, she is glad that the putting quality first has turned out to also be the right thing for the business.
Nicole admitted that sometimes it’s super hard for companies to expand into certain territories. At the end of the day, the compliance regulations change all the time and people are people. So, they’re very unpredictable and to expand into another country, she believes, just like in building a business in your own country, the hardest things are always the people, because that’s what pulls your heartstrings. People are not ‘cogs in a wheel’, they’re not predictable. It’s not like you can just put a person into a role and they’re going to execute perfectly. But that is also where the rewards come in. So, the countries that are hard, Nicole said they’re hard because the legal and political situation is evolving constantly. But the hardest things, again, being related to people are also where they get the most joy and the most accomplishment out of the business. So, because their clients leave the hard part to them, they mostly get the joy of the growth of the business. But when there are hard things, they are side by side with them helping to solve those issues. She told a story of how they have had people who have gone missing and then turn up three days later, after a bender, at a hospital, they find out that they were calling police stations and hospitals and it turns out that they just had a really wild night at a party. It was a crazy thing to resolve, these are the types of HR issues that any HR person can probably tell you is their horror stories. At the end of the day, solving that side by side with their clients is a motive.
Nicole explained that for their account management team, half their job is cross-cultural communication and interpretation. There’s a lot of countries where people are more comfortable picking up the phone and talking to their HR people on the ground, and they kind of expect their team to pass on the feedback to the headquarters team. Nicole said that they are happy to play that role as intermediary and translate to the client headquarters team. She believes that it solves a tremendous amount of problems for their clients. Their internal HR team are bilingual and they’re bicultural, the bicultural part is a differentiator if they’re used to working with US headquartered companies. For example, Nicole said that there’s a tradition in the Middle East where if an employee has a baby, they get something like a tuition reimbursement. It’s part of the way their payroll is compensated, for each kid, they get an education allowance. Nicole explained that one time a general manager of a UAE company called Headquarters and they said, ‘you know, Akhmad just had a child and we want to start paying him his education allowance for the newborn’. The HR director called, and she was really upset because she trusted her GM in country but didn’t understand why a newborn needed an education allowance. But, just having Globalization Partners on her side to interpret that for her and tell her that it’s just part of the culture is better at least even if she didn’t want to actually approve it, to at least have the context that her GM wasn’t trying to pull the wool over her eyes, was extremely reassuring.
Nicole acknowledged that it has been a hard year for businesses, but she thinks now is exactly the right time to be talking about international expansion. For example, if a London headquartered company has traditionally only been selling into the into the UK, they’re missing the vast majority of the rest of the world and the huge open market that is available. If clients don’t go global faster, they find competition popping up, taking advantage of the market opportunity that they’ve proved works in one country and that the business model exists. But they have got to go and grab market share as fast as they can. And finally, it’s related to talent. So, it used to be that a Boston based company could fly an employee into France every other month to go meet with the clients there and that was sufficient. Now, with people not traveling at all, they really need a French person on the ground in France meeting those clients and doing regular Zoom calls. There’s just something comforting about having support on the ground in country for clients that is much more successful ultimately for businesses.
Internal expansion plans of their own
Nicole said that Globalization Partners have built something that changes the way people do business around the globe. They have always gotten a lot of contact from Europe and from Asian clients. In fact, they weren’t even supporting those clients previously because they wanted to wait until they knew that they could really service them well. At this point, they are very confident in their ability to scale the business and continue to provide clients with 97% satisfaction with their global expansion and as they go all over the globe. So, Nicole explained that they have hired a European sales team based in London and in Galway in 2020, and they will be expanding that team throughout Europe in 2021. They have also hired an APAC team based out of Singapore and will be expanding that team throughout Asia in 2021.
Partnership with the Mayor’s International Business Program
Dhaval Gore, Head of the Mayor’s International Business Program at London & Partners, explained to us that this program helps ambitious high growth scale up companies from London to expand their business internationally. London & Partners is the umbrella company within which the Mayor’s international business program sits, so London & Partners is the official promotional agency attracting overseas businesses, events, Congresses, students, and visitors to London and helping London businesses to go global. Their members and member companies operate in a host of sectors, from the creative industries, financial services, health, and smart cities. They all have a common thread however, of being ambitious with their international growth plans. London & Partners therefore support them with the know-how and the know who to speed up their understanding of their target markets and industries. They deliver an ongoing program of workshops and events, have mentors, corporates, advisors and investors, and this also includes their trade missions where they take groups of companies typically from a specific sector to a market and expose them to key connections and help them build their knowledge and understanding of that market. All this is delivered in partnership with their corporate partners, such as Globalization Partners, who join the likes of KPMG, Lloyds Bank, Microsoft, Taylor Wessing, Wilson Sonsini and Collinson Group.
Dhaval explained that the programme has helped nine hundred London based companies to internationalise. These are companies that are either on the program, because it’s a 12-month ongoing program, or companies that have graduated and are now part of the alumni network. So, at any given time London & Partners are either onboarding or graduating and it’s been ongoing now for about five years. One of their KPIs is around job creation. They are supported by the Mayor of London, and it speaks to his economic development policies, so they have created or helped to create around 1700 jobs among these companies. They are funded by a some money from City Hall, but the large tranche of the money comes from the European Union through some of the European Regional Development Fund, then that’s matched funded by the corporate partners, including Globalization Partners.
Dhaval said that they are excited by this new partnership with Globalization Partners and they are going to work together, like they do with all the other partners, to collaborate and, in its essence, support London’s scale ups. He said that Globalization Partners has a pretty impressive global reach with individuals and teams spanning most jurisdictions and markets, certainly within which they operate and more so, they bring to the party expertise, knowledge, connections, all of this good rich material and connections that can help the member companies build their capabilities and become effectively global players. So, he said that it’s about expertise, connections and content. Of course, London & Partners are also very acutely aware, talking to the team of Globalization Partners, that the employer of record concept is relatively new in their market, whilst certainly quite well known in the States, in North America generally. So, through their endeavours and collaboration they can educate the market for activities on that approach to market entry.
Dhaval said that some of Globalization Partners’ colleagues have already been involved in some of London & Partners’ activities that were already on track whilst they were in discussions and onboarding them as a partner. For example, he said that London & Partners as a service, run trade missions, albeit virtually right now because they can’t physically get on a plane and visit the markets. But recently Dhaval led on a German trade mission which was themed around the fintech industry, and one of Globalization Partners’ senior partners, who was transiting from the States to Ireland, joined one of their calls and spoke to them about what it means to do business in Germany, to set up a scale because she’s a native and also understands the business community there, particularly in Berlin. So, these are kind of the small but highly, highly effective activities where they are constantly on a continual basis involving Globalization Partners and their colleagues. London & Partners have a mission coming up in North America very soon, again, themed around fintech. Dhaval believes that fintech reigns supreme right now as a sector, particularly for London, and the team in the States at Globalization Partners will be helping them with some of the content and connections with that exercise. That’s just a small example that certainly speaks to their strengths.
Dhaval explained that the common thread amongst their members is that speed is of the essence. Everything they do is about acceleration. He believes that the companies that they work with will always get to where they’re going to with or without them, but what London & Partners are trying to do and contribute is, how do they accelerate that in terms of learning, in terms of content and connections. He thinks that the employer of record concept speaks to that speed and acceleration in terms of market entry to new market, which then allows members in their companies who are on board that outsourcing service to scale quickly and then to spend more time focused on what’s really important for them, and that’s their clients and their products and product developments. It’s interesting because speed is triggered by a number of things; they could have onboarded a new client, onboarded a new distribution partner or investors breathing down their neck to expand really, really fast into new markets. Or it could be simply first mover advantage – whatever the trigger point, speed is of the essence. So, anything that can help them offload some of the set-up procedures would be of huge value.
Impact of Covid
Nicole said that with coronavirus, the first thing that was a test for all of them was just the sudden shift with absence of information to a global remote workforce. She added that the way that tested her as a leader was hard. Globalization Partners have large teams in India and Mexico City, which are both regions that don’t work from home. They don’t have a work from home culture and indeed a lot of people’s homes are not set up to work remotely, and as soon as they shut down their offices in the US, they realised even if these countries are saying that there’s no COVID, their governments aren’t as strong as American and European governments, so, maybe they just don’t know. It’s turned out that actually the government in Mexico has just downplayed the virus quite a bit because they’ve said they don’t have any way to really manage it and the economy effectively, it won’t work for people. Similarly, India is just such a large country with such a large population that it would it would be quite challenging for them to control it. So, Globalization Partners decided to have their teams work from home and remotely, even though it was precarious at first. Nicole believed that that was a big test of leadership and really putting their company values, putting their money where their mouth is and saying they are going to have everybody work from home, even if it’s a little scary, they are going to make sure they find a way to do it. So, they did that quickly and easily. That was the first big test. Secondly, uncertainty, guiding people and providing light to people in times of uncertainty is really important. It’s turned out that their business was not negatively impacted nearly as much as she would have expected by COVID. But people have been affected a lot this year and no matter who you are, for example 50% of the employees in the United States, someone in their family has suffered job loss. People were afraid. There’s a lot going on in the world. So, showing leadership to them has been taking a stand and supporting people where they need it and trying to keep them motivated and inspired, even in hard times.
Purpose
Nicole explained that she loved the business purpose question because that’s something that really inspires her. At the beginning, one thing she always told her clients is that they are at the forefront of globalisation. She added that one key thing about globalisation is, if you see and work with people from another culture or country every day, the ‘otherness’ of that person starts to melt away. If you were only watching the News ten years ago and you saw someone in hijab or someone who just looked very different, maybe they were wearing a head covering or something that you don’t wear in America very often, it can be scary. Anything that’s ‘other’, people are taught to be afraid of. But when you work and see someone every single day via video communication and you hear about them going to pick up their kids from school, it can really break down the barriers. Globalization Partners like to say that their motive as a business, their mission, is not just to break down barriers to global business, but to break down barriers between people around the globe. So, that’s something that they stand for. Historically, the idea of a business was to create maximise shareholder value at all costs. However, in August of 2019, five hundred CEOs and in the CEO Business Roundtable came out and said, no longer is the shareholder the only stakeholder and businesses have to contribute to other stakeholders as well. Globalization Partners have had that as the motivation behind their business since the outset. They call it the Triple Bottom Line. So besides contributing to shareholders, the company’s mission was always to create a positive experience for its employees and for its customers as well. Nicole is really happy that they have attained that. So, that’s just some of the values that they hold near and dear. In terms of the company culture, Nicole would say their company culture is people are very effective, very responsive and very positive. They don’t have a lot of the politics behind the business that she thinks can become common because they acknowledge that the company is changing so quickly. If there’s something going wrong or somebody is not able to perform in a certain role, it’s not that they don’t want to. They don’t have chronic slackers or underperformers that stay in the business. But there might be a systems issue and so people are very proactive about addressing it. She added that people are responsive, positive, they buy into the mission of the company being to break down barriers between people around the globe and there’s a lot of gratitude expressed throughout the business.
Nicole said it takes a lot of energy and ambition to work at Globalization Partners, because it’s very busy and growing a super high growth global company is not for the faint of heart. So, people have to really love what they do and be passionate about it. People have to be willing to roll with the punches and change. They currently are about 270 employees internally, they have been adding about 30 a month and probably will continue at that rate, so they will be double their current size by the end of next year. Whenever a company is growing that quickly and changing that quickly, especially across so many countries around the globe, there’s just a lot of inherent change in the business. So, there’s tons of room for promotion, but people’s jobs change all the time and that’s part of the joy of it and its part of the fun of it. But if you were the type of person who just wants a checklist to come into the office every day, and some people really like the uniformity of doing the same tasks every day, they are never going to be the right company for somebody who prefers that type of rule.
Nicole said that Globalization Partners will definitely be a multibillion-dollar business by 2024 and doing over a billion [dollars] in revenue by the end of 2021. So, they are growing just as quickly as they can. She said it’s fun to keep up with the ride, but their goal is to ultimately transform the way the world does business. She believes that the global employer of record model is the way companies will hire their global workforce in the future. And Globalization Partners are going to be the company that makes it easy for them.